More marriages might survive if the partners realized that sometimes the better comes after the worse. ~Doug Larson
Over the past week I’ve seen some pretty ugly events amongst a group of bloggers and I find it disheartening. Some people are going to think I’m talking about the infamous love triangle. No, it’s the reaction to triangle that I’ve found unbelievable.
I’ve read posts by bloggers who have gotten on their moral high horse and proclaimed that all adulterers are sinners who we should burn at the stake. O.K. they didn’t say we should burn them at the stake but pretty damn close. It’s true that adultery is a sin however I’m not a Christian so I’m not sure what the exact ramifications are according to the Bible. I guess you go straight to hell.
That’s not my point though.
Sometimes people make very poor decisions. Or they make decisions based on high emotion without thinking about the consequences. It’s called human error. Remember we are humans, right? Cheating on your spouse isn’t right in fact it’s the worst crime you can commit in a marriage.
I’ve been on both ends of adultery. I’ve been the spouse who has been cheated on and I’ve been the spouse who has cheated. The spouse who cheated on me left me for another woman…who made him miserable so the stupid son of a bitch took his problems with him…he was the problem. The time I was the spouse who cheated was in my marriage to Dude.
Yes, I’ve cheated on my husband and I’m in no way proud of it. Seven years ago I had an affair and when he found out he threw me out of the house. Dude took our kids away from me, changed the locks on the doors and closed our joint bank account. I had nothing but some of my clothes and my car.
I didn’t see our children for months. I missed Teenie’s first step. I missed Teenie’s first word. In fact I missed a good chunk of her time as a baby. I got what I deserved.
My circle of friends crucified me though. They turned their backs on me and judged me deeming me as a bad, morally defected and horrible person. Thank GOD they weren’t all bloggers because my name would have been all over the Internet…they had that much to say about me. They also never spoke to me again.
An extramarital affair cost me everything…my husband, my children, my home, my friends and left me without any where to live…and left me penniless. I was a stay-at-home mom so I had no job. I got what I deserved.
I’d also like to add that while I was having an affair I felt incredible guilt, sadness and depression. I wasn’t having a good time fucking someone else. In fact I was so trapped in depression I attempted suicide at one point. The affair was just a symptom of what was wrong with ME.
Dude and I repaired our marriage. We got back together nine months later and rebuilt the trust. We rebuilt and redesigned our relationship from the ground up because there were so many things wrong. We’ve had our rough spots like every marriage but I know I’m one very, very, very lucky woman. Seven years later the affair is in the past. Seriously, it’s part of our past.
So go ahead and judge me. I don’t really care because if you think I’m the most horrible person in the world because I made an incredible stupid decision seven years ago, paid dearly for that poor decision and have a spouse who is incredibly forgiving. Have a great time on your moral soap box. The only person’s opinion that I care about is Dude’s.
I know how lucky I am that I have a husband who today understands depression, who forgave me for what I did and loves me for who I am.
Can you really judge a situation if you aren’t in some else’s shoes? I mean, really. Do you now think less of me because I had an affair seven years ago? Am I a sinner? Am I going to hell?
Oh, and before you tell me I need to find God because I stated I’m not a Christian let me clarify that I’m not a Christian in the sense that I practice an organized religion. I have not read the entire Bible…just tiny bits and pieces because I grew up in a predominantly dysfunctional Jewish household, well sorta. That’s just a post for another time.
Forget it if you think my problem is that I need God in my life. I have a relationship with God that works just fine, thanksomuch.
Could we just stop all this moral judging and let the people who need to heal, heal?
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AMEN. Well said Lisa.
Karen Sugarpantss last blog post..Hitting a Wall: 5 Tips to Bust That Weight Loss Plateau
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I think you’re honest and you have helped a lot of people with this post. Thanks for being so ballsy!
that girls last blog post..Gore Hearts Obama, and We Want Boobies in the White House
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Adultery is a sin, but so is pride, and all of those holier-than-thou people who are declaring that any person who would dare cheat on their spouse is an evil person is suffering from a bad case of pride.
Avitables last blog post..Tareagahg2g2jlkfrk
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Karen, Thanks for not crucifying me. I have a feeling some of that is coming…and I’m prepared.
thatgirl, We shall see if it helps but it took a lot of courage for me to post this…and permission from my husband.
Avitable, Well said!
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Lisa,
Life and love are awful and wonderful all at the same time. You captured the very essence of what happens when mistakes are made in a marriage, and the absolute wonder of what can happen when forgiveness gives love a second chance.
Thank you for sharing – it is a comfort to know that kind of love is out there.
Judy Cs last blog post..Tasers and The Republican National Convention
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Lisa, kudos to Dude for giving you the opportunity to rebuild that trust. I know many people who wouldn’t have, right or wrong.
And kudos to you for owning your own behavior and taking steps to repair your relationship with your husband.
We all make mistakes, and no marriage is all rainbows and lollipops. It sounds as though you and your husband have a great relationship now. And this is something that really is between the two people in the relationship, IMHO
Sharons last blog post..These are a few of my favorite things. . . .
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Thank God, FINALLY for a voice of sanity and reason.
You are awesome, Lisa.
BTW, you are totally in my feedreader, I just suck at leaving comments. And, I owe you a huge apology because I just found where you wished me a happy birthday (six months ago) on Facebook. I stink at logging in there too.
AmyDs last blog post..I’m not hearing things!
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Yes, a sin is a sin is a sin and we commit them upon one another on a daily basis.
But…
I think the reason this particular situation has set off such a stream of anger to people who seemingly shouldn’t be affected by it is that those who ever have been hurt by infidelity know it hurts like HELL.
Yes, you are very lucky you had an understanding husband. The (first) guy that cheated on me wasn’t even my husband. But he fucked another girl for six months and I threw him up against his front door when I found out–and he was about a foot taller than me.
So, I think the whole situation is just touching on some very raw emotions for some people.
And others, eh…are just there to throw tomatoes.
wafelenbaks last blog post..Into the ER
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BTW I am re-reading your post and realizing you were the cheat-ee once too so I don’t mean to imply that you don’t know how it feels, just that those scars sometimes stay raw and I think that it’s hitting too close for a lot of people right now. Maybe. Just a theory.
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Yes you are a sinner and you’re going to hell. I’ll be right there with you, so no worries. I feel the same as you, the only person’s whose opinion should matter to you is Dude’s. Just like the only opinion Brad has to worry about is Mrs. Brad. If they can work this out, good on them. I always vote for marriage when there are many years invested (unless of course, it is my own). Kidding. I kid.
usedtobermes last blog post..I’m on my way to the LSAT test
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We are, after all, human beings. Not perfect. Definitely flawed. Always learning from our mistakes.
How boring perfect would be. There’s no challenge in that at all.
Flaws, imperfections, mistakes are part of everyone’s core values. It’s what makes us better people in the long run.
Thanks for writing this today. But as far as I am concerned personally, you are still up there on a pedestal because you are a much stronger person than I will ever be … flaws, imperfections, mistakes and all.
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I have left comments of support all over the place and wouldn’t dare crucify anyone for something like this. We’re all human, we all make mistakes and in no way is marriage black and white. Furthermore, just like I won’t tell someone how to raise their child or how to do their job, there is no place for me in someone else’s marriage.
My only hope is that the people involved heal, move on, and live life to the fullest from here on out. It will take time.
Karen Sugarpantss last blog post..Hitting a Wall: 5 Tips to Bust That Weight Loss Plateau
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I don’t know what you are talking about.. as far as something about someone having an affair and others judging them – but I liked what you shared about yourself and your own life.
I am a lesbian and it drives me nuts when people get on their moral high horse and try to give God to me – when I already have a relationship with God that I am perfectly happy with!
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I don’t think any less of you. It’s true that I am often tweaked by seeing people have affairs, but that’s because I know what it feels like…on BOTH sides of the coin.
What really set me off about the triangle was how Fab dragged Turnbaby cross-country with him, only to leave her alone in Florida. That was what initially pissed me off.
Karls last blog post..Judge, Jury, and Elecutioner
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Judy C, It wasn’t an easy road for Dude and I…it took many years to get where we are but I’m sure I speak for him when I say it was totally worth all the bumps in the road to get here. (I know I speak for him because I just asked him
)
Sharon, You hit the nail on the head…marriage is not all rainbows and lollipops and I think so many people are deluded into thinking that it is. There are days when it’s really a load of shit. It’s how you work through the shit is what makes the difference.
AmyD, Yes, I thought I had kept my mouth long enough. I, too suck at leaving messages…no worries.
Same with the Facebook thing too. Wait, are you my long lost twin???
Wafelenbak, Do you know how hard it is to type your name if you haven’t had any coffee?
I’m not sure why this has sparked so much controversy. For some because they want drama and others because they are friends with the parties.
Either way it’s a hot issue.
Or like you said…they like tomatoes. I for one don’t advocate violence against tomatoes unless they are filling with salmonella.
usedtobeme, But are we going to hell in a bucket because if we are can we at least enjoy the ride? I agree it’s best to work on a marriage if there are a lot of years invested but two people know when it’s worth it or not. You know? Sometimes it’s just OVER.
I know it the case of Dude and I we had two small children oblivious to what was going on and used them as a stepping off point. That and we really loved each other.
Mattie, If there is one thing I don’t do…it’s boring. You are also very kind but please…don’t put me on a pedastal. I’m afraid of heights woman!
Karen, I’ve seen your comments and you are one person I’ve seen take a very mature approach…not that some other people haven’t but I’ve noticed that you have. I have the same hope that you do…that they can move on and heal. It’s sort of why I wrote this today.
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Kate, It drives me nuts when someone tries to tell me how I should establish my relationship with God as well.
Karl, You expressed your feelings in terms of “I” and I applauded you for that. You didn’t get on a moral high horse, or at least I didn’t think you did.
I’ve been on both sides of the coin as well. This is also something that happened seven years ago which feels like a lifetime ago in light of what I’ve been through the past four years but it is what it is.
I appreciate that you don’t think any less of me. That’s call being a real friend.
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Gurl please its that whole Bob Marley saying “make sure your hands are clean before you start pointing fingers”
People will judge and jury any situtaion and all the while they have flaws of their own.
As long as you and your DH are on the same page and work it out kudos to you. It don’t matter what you did then. This is NOW.
I know someone in the same deal of working it out in their marriage, its a slow snails pace progress but its progress.
MrsRobbieDs last blog post..Define Stress for me…
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I have no idea what situation you refer to, and part of me wants to google it and the other part, the part that wins, is not going to because I don’t need to see any more pain.
First off, I am a Christian, Catholic, and I am not going to judge you – you have judged yourself plenty. You have also made things right with your husband. Judgment like that, in a true Christian sense, is for people who don’t see their issue but could be helped by your insight. Honest to blog, that’s what it’s for. Like, you could lovingly point out that I ignore my husband at night or speak rudely to my mother or something else that I don’t see but is harming my relationships. But you don’t need that, so why would any true Christian try to do that? It would be wrong of them.
This is a REALLY long comment, but I want to share a story. One day my husband and I were in church, and our pastor got up and started to talk about marriage and basically it was a rant about how we don’t get to judge anyone for what goes on in their marriage or why they leave it (it was mostly about divorce) and if you really care about what goes on in someone’s marriage you should start by listening to them and being honest about your own faults and failings in marriage. And N and I just looked at each other – it wasn’t the official line, but we liked it.
So I believe that, very much. None of us are perfect and we don’t have the right to cast stones at each other. Instead, when faced with sadness and destruction of a marriage, we should open our hearts and listen, open our mouths and share our own struggles, because that might help a friend in need. And that’s just what you have done.
EDWs last blog post..They can’t take that away from me
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I totally agree with what you said. I am glad that things worked out with you and dude.:)
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I have just recently found out how much cheating hurts. The bottom has dropped out of my world and I’m seven months pregnant but I would NEVER NEVER presume to judge anyone else’s choices. I admire you for having the balls to come out with this story and for working your way back to each other. You give me hope that if I can find it within me maybe we can recover.
Lalas last blog post..#938 preceding apace
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I, too, have been on both sides…100 years ago with K’s dad, so hopefully I’ve learned.
Can the bucket or handbasket to hell be padded please? And will there be drinks served?
Tugs last blog post..The shock & surprise of it all
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i think we judge ourselves more harshly than the God above does. I’ve been on both sides of the equation. I definitely got my bad karma for what I did and the person who did it to me, also “got his.” judging is a sin — so ignore the people on their high horses. they’re not worth it.
hugs.
shes last blog post..It’s Sad
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Man, this thing just won’t go away will it. You are a very intelligent sounding woman, and you are absolutrly right…. we are all human.
Blondefabulouss last blog post..Tuesday Has Some Big Shoes To Fill.
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Very well said Lisa. Very well said.
I used to think that morality was some kind of black and white THING that you could use to mark people “good” or “bad”.
Of course, I was like 16 then.
I hope I’ve learned to grow beyond that point by now.
Miss Britts last blog post..At least they didn’t call him a Fag
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AMEN to that Lisa. You hit the nail on the head.
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I’m kinda glad I don’t know the blog drama of with you refer to. Judgment sucks and somehow online it seems even more insidious. I kinda adore you for your faults, for your willingness to lay it all out there.
HeatherKs last blog post..Three to remember
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I once had a person accuse me of several things I never did. One of them was cheating on her (which I’d been given the impression would have been bad).
She eventually dumped me and started seeing a married guy — for a couple of years until his wife got tired of it and they divorced.
I have trouble with certain hypocrisies more than anything else. It is infrequent that I’ll care what a person does and can come to an understanding over most any situation — so long as that person isn’t doing something they’ve preached against or pretended to be above in the past. (And I cut televangelists no slack at all.)
delmers last blog post..I’m a Winner
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I certainly don’t condemn someone for having an affair. Morals and ethics are all relative, and have absolutely nothing to do with religion and sinning. A non-religious person can have high morals and ethics, again, relative to a situation or a culture. A sin to one is a mistake to another is “just the way a person lives” to another.
And everybody makes mistakes, certainly. No worse (usually?) than any other persons mistake, just different.
The thing that bothered me about this situation was the public humiliation of the jilted spouse, or what I should say is, what I PERCEIVED as the public humiliation of the jilted spouse, (or spouses, I don’t read the other person at all so I have no idea about what happened with the other spouse) who, with as much (or little, really) information that I knew about her, did not deserve HER business splattered on the world-wide-web.
That one particular action is what I “judged” as the wrong thing to do, but I don’t see it as “judging” I call it “caring” about how she must have felt.
The “congratulations” thing bugged me, too. I wouldn’t congratulate even my best friend if I know it caused terrible hurt to someone who REALLY DID NOT deserve it. I’m not saying I want my best friend to be miserable, of course I would want my friend to be happy! But “instant gratification” is different from “happiness”.
Again, it depends on the situation, but I was only going by what little I knew. If I seemed judge-y on those two points, so be it. I can live with that.
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I haven’t walked in your shoes, so I don’t see how I have the right to judge you.
Lyndas last blog post..I Can Be Judgmental
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Oh, the irony of my last blog post too….lol!
Lyndas last blog post..I Can Be Judgmental
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I applaud you, always for your honesty. I also applaud you for not making cheating seem glamorous, from either side of the fence. I think alone speaks volumes about what kind of person you are.
I am not sure you deserved all that you lost when you were caught, you are a more harsh judge than I would have been.
I would hope your friends would have realized you were worth keeping around and tried to help you, not shun you. It is such a shame.
Denices last blog post..An Explanation of Sorts
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MrsRobbieD, You are very right…people get on their soapbox and preach what is right and wrong while they claim to be holier than thou, yet they compromise themselves in the process. Those people are called hypocrites.
EDW, It’s not worth Googling.
You said “Honest to blog”…I love you for that.
You also make perfect sense in relation to true Christianity.
Sandi, Thank you. I know how lucky I am that things worked out.
Lala, I understand how much cheating hurts as I have been on the other side of the coin. It happened 20 years ago but I still remember every single detail as if it happened yesterday.
I’m so very sorry that you have to go through it while pregnant but perhaps your story can have a happy ending like my marriage has. I can tell you this…it won’t be easy. It was a rough road for us to get where we are but we stuck it out and I’m glad we did.
Tug, I plan on making margaritas for the ride. I think we can pad the basket.
She, Some of us do judge ourselves more harshly than God…others don’t care what they do.
Miss Britt, Thank you. I wish more people understood that it is NOT a black or white issue. That is the problem…they think it either is or it isn’t. You hit the nail on the head baby!
Krystle, So did Britt!
HeatherK, Online people don’t have to show their faces or face the individual they are attacking which is why it is so much more insidious.
Delmer, I’ve been one of those whose accused a boyfriend of cheating only to find out he didn’t and it made our relationship a living hell…and ended it.
I dumped him and started seeing my husband…who was completely single.
Adultery is one situation where I have no ground to stand on as I have been on both sides of the coin.
annie, I’m glad that you get that morals and ethics are relative and not black and white. You have always struck me as someone who is on that type of wave length. I think that’s why I like you
My post wasn’t in relation to the rest of your comments but I understand exactly what you are saying. The entire situation was completely fucked up and really rocked a lot of people in the blogging community. I know at one point some of the stuff happening made me want to stop blogging all together.
The entire point of my post was to say, “Hey, I committed adultery…are those of you who condemn it now going to hate me because you already condemned someone else publicly?”
I just wanted to express that people make poor decisions and pay personal consequences.
I hope that’s what my post expressed.
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Lynda, That’s beautiful with your post tagline!
Denice, Believe me, I deserved what I got when I had the affair. And the women who abandoned ship? Well they weren’t my real friends because real friends stand by you no matter what.
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Thank you!
It was only after I lost my faith that I finally started to realize what “judge not lest you be judged” really meant.
Musings last blog post..Dust bunnies, ice cube trays and a sliver of hope
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BlondeFabulous, Sorry I missed you on the last round of comments. I’m not trying to keep this thing going. That’s not the intent of my post. I’m not a “jump on the bandwagon” kind of chick. In fact I pride myself on marching to the beat of my own drummer, a heavy metal drummer, thanksomuch.
I felt compelled to post this because I’ve seen some bloggers that I know judge adultery and it made me wonder how they would feel about me if they knew that I had an affair.
I doubted that those who think less of me would actually post that here although I wish they would because I KNOW there are some who do. They think it’s a black and white issue. Adulterer/Sinner, Adulterer/Asshole.
I didn’t want to feel like a hypocrite and since I’m a blogger who puts it all out there I felt that was something I had to put out there too.
Of course I discussed it with my husband and he said it didn’t matter because it’s really so far in the past he never thinks about it. To quote him, “All I care about is that you are here with me today for yesterday is the past, tomorrow is the future and today is the present…which is why it is called a gift.”
But I think he was quoting Kung Fu Panda.
Musing, You learn a lot of lessons once the shoe is on the other foot, don’t you?
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Oh yes, Lisa, totally I got that! You said it beautifully!
I was trying to selfishly make my own point, because I was vilified by the person himself and lumped into the “self-righteous condemner” category. Maybe I have my OWN category, ha-ha! Sorry I hi-jacked your comments to make my own post practically
annies last blog post..Another Edition of Small Town Police Reports
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annie, I believe that you definitely have you own category and that you should proudly OWN that category.
I’ve got lots of bandwidth to feel free to post anytime
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Very well-said. If anything, this makes me think even more highly (if that’s even possible?) of you and Dude and your relationship. Life and people are not perfect; we make mistakes and learn by them. Kudos to the two of you for dealing with them and not sweeping them under the rug.
Oh, and as someone who grew up in a Jewish household as well — is there really such a thing as a functional one?
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I think I’m more judgmental about people littering, not recycling, or feeding soda pop to babies than I am about what sorts of relationships you choose have and how you set it up.
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It made me laugh and feel so embarassed. My judgmentalness has more to do with the crazy teenagers that live next door to us.
Lyndas last blog post..I Can Be Judgmental
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Shiny, Thank you…that’s incredibly kind of you.
Very true, you life and you learn.
You are probably right about a Jewish household but my grandmother’s apple cake and chicken soup were KILLER! Thank GOD my mother got the recipes.
PocketCT, You’ve seen people give SODA to BABIES???
Wow. That to me is incredible. I don’t even let my 8 year old have soda.
I also tend to get pissy about littering and recycling.
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I have never been the cheater, but I was the cheatee – by my high school sweetheart and husband of 12 years. It ended our marriage, and he ended up marrying his mistress. It hurts to be cheated on. Man, does it hurt.
That said, I didn’t expect, nor did I endorse or condone, the reigns of hell being brought down on my ex for his actions. He did what he did and he had his reasons. He made choices, like all of us do every day of our lives. I don’t expect people to second-guess or judge my choices in life, and I (at least try) to offer them that same respect.
I may wince a little when I hear of someone I know (or even don’t know that well) that is cheating or being cheated on, but I definitely don’t judge. The parties involved have enough to sort through without having to deal with outside influences.
Evil Geniuss last blog post..Just What is IN Those Frappachinos?
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Evil Genius, I’m so very sorry you had to go through the hurt of being on end of being the “cheatee”. I’ve been through it myself and I know that hurt…it’s devastating. I can remember when I became the cheater what if felt like when I was the one who was betrayed by my former spouse when he cheated on me. It made it even worse, as well as it should have.
I think the problem is that no one explained to me that marriage was hard, hard work. I never got that until I married a man who was in it for the long haul no matter what.
They should make it absolutely MANDATORY that couples have counseling before they get married or have relationship classes to understand that it is HARD to stay together because relationships are not fairy tales.
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There are so many things that people feel free to judge when they shouldn’t. I would never attempt to judge someone for the choices they make. Who am I to judge? I always think unless you walk a mile in someone elses shoes, you have no idea what it is like for them. I’m not saying go out and cheat, I’m just saying that people are human and other humans should not be judging them for mistakes they make. I believe it says something about not judging other people in the bible too.
I’m happy you and your husband were able to communicate and figure things out. That says a lot about the quality of your relationship. I am also impressed that you shared this. It was very brave, and if anything I think more highly of you for being real and sharing something so personal.
radioactivegirltoris last blog post..Sweet Like Flowers
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Radioactivegirltori, That is so true. I used to feel the same way about cancer. Not that I judged people!!!! I had no idea how bad people really felt when they had it until I got it.
But in terms of judging what someone else does how can we judge unless we’ve been there ourselves and even so who are we to judge.
My husband and I had to go through A LOT to get where we are today. A LOT. However it got us to where we are and I’m very grateful.
Thanks for the accolades. I appreciate it.
Lisas last blog post..It’s A Sale!
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Umm, where the hell have I been? Admittedly I’m glad I missed this latest drama.
I’m so happy that you and dude were able to do the work to get beyond it. It isn’t easy, I know.
While you’re being so honest, I’ll join you. I was a habitual cheater in my 2nd marriage. Over 16 years I was faithful five of them. And that was because I was busy having a couple of babies, and changing diapers.
No one really knows what goes on behind closed doors. You could take my last paragraph, run with it, and have me burned at the stake. The rest of the story is my husband knew all about it, and chose to look the other way, to keep his life intact. I’d say marriage, but we didn’t have much of a marriage to begin with. It doesn’t excuse my behavior by any means. I was guilty, period. But, married to a man who wouldn’t go to marriage couseling, didn’t want anything deeper than dinner on the table and to this day is unable to communicate worth a damn. And, 8 years later is still alone and not dating.
I chose to divorce him, because I could no longer live with my own behavior, and I didn’t want my children growing up thinking this was a normal marriage.
My first marriage, he cheated on me. (Besides the domestic violence that was part of that marriage.) Still the pain of being cheated on, I can recall as if it was yesterday.
I try my best not to stand in judgement, due to my own past. And a lesson I learned the hard way? Whenever I stood on my holier-than-thou pedastool (my younger yrs.) and said, “I would never!” I did. Eventually.
I do feel bad for this couple, whoever they are. To have their present lives and mistakes played out on the internet? Would be another nightmare on top of the original one. Making healing even harder to come to. (IMHO)
My biggest gripe is with Christians who feel they have the right to stand in judgement. I consider myself a Christian, although I turned my back on religon years ago. Hmmm… A Christian who committed adultery over and over and over. I believe that I learned a lot about myself, and people in general. And I cherish my marriage I’m in today. And both of us try and protect it from any outside forces that would come against it.
All this writing to say, before standing in judgement of anyone else, maybe we should each clean our own backyard. And since we all make mistakes (or sin) on a daily basis; it isn’t going to leave time to play judge, jury and executioner of anyone else.
Thought provoking post, Lisa. I just want to say, thank you for being you. Your honesty and forthrightness is rare and precious. Just as you are precious.
Love you,
3T
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3T, Thank you so much for sharing your story…and for your honesty. I know how hard it is to tell this story.
You really cinched it when you said “no one knows what goes on behind closed doors.” The dynamics in a relationship between two people are just that…between those two people and not for the rest of the world to understand. Or for the rest of the world to judge.
That’s really the bottom line, isn’t it?
I used to be a very judgmental person or at least I think I was. I learned the hard way, by life experience, what it’s like when I was judged myself.
I’m still not perfect by any means…
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